Robert Greene: How To Seduce Anyone, Build Confidence & Become Powerful

 some of the greatest seducers who are

not good looking at all what are the

qualities of a great Seducer I'm

revealing stuff I shouldn't be revealing

Robert Greene is one of the best-selling

authors in history an internationally

renowned expert on power strategies and

referencing songs by Jay-Z Kanye West

and Drake written six International

bestsellers that have become legendary

why did you write a book about seduction

seduction is in high form of power

people will do what you want without

ever even realizing seduction is a

mating ritual you can't just swipe and

get it but because of all the dating

apps if you are able to understand the

language of Seduction you're going to

have so much more power and success than

anybody else one thing about words is

people can lie but body language it

doesn't lie you master that language you

can start deciphering all these people

are giving you it's about psychology and

it's about how you carry yourself if you

feel confident it will naturally radiate

through your gestures but what is real

confidence and how does one build it

confidence comes from

you've talked about the topic of powers

but in 2018 you had a stroke in that

moment it sounds like your power had

been taken from you the left side of my

body is paralyzed and that was not easy

I've got to find a strategy to deal with

all this please understand that the

ability that you have now to run to walk

to type you can be taken away from you

it's miserable please don't take it for

granted

foreign

before we get into this episode just

wanted to say thank you first and

foremost for being part of this

community

um the team here at the diver Co is now

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life to sit here with these incredible

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let's get on with it

[Music]

what do I need to know about you and

your your earliest years to to

understand the life that you went on

that Journey you went on and the person

you came to be well I grew up here in

Los Angeles not far from where we are in

a neighborhoods called Baldwin Hills and

then we move to another neighborhood

a very nice childhood very middle class

family my father was a Salesman his

whole life worked for the same company

for 40 years just sold chemical supplies

um and you know my parents kind of left

me alone a lot I was basically my sister

almost kind of raised me in a way and

and you know I had a very nice childhood

kind of left alone sort of an introvert

books kind of shaped me I became an Avid

Reader in early age

no knew I wanted to be a writer got

heavily into drugs I'm afraid in high

school because that's that was the time

and where I went to school and in

college had some great experiences I

looked very fondly back even on my drug

experiences even though they got kind of

depressing after a while

but it kind of shaped me in in some ways

and you know that was that was me

growing up you know and if I had an

attitude or a lens in which I looked at

people from a distance like I was always

sort of Obsessed

with people wore masks and the way I

looked at it even when I looked at my my

parents and their friends and I said

what is really going on behind their the

masks that they were in all the social

nice cities going on

what is behind what is really the human

animal like and so these are kind of the

themes that

that were make big part of my Me growing

up

from what I read you had

a lot of different jobs and a lot of

different Industries up until the point

when you wrote

um the first of your many books called

the 48 Laws of Power back in 1998 and I

was looking at all of these different

jobs you'd had and they all seem to be

completely different from one another so

then trying to understand how you

arrived at a moment where you then wrote

a book on the topic and subject matter

of power

um having not been you know a psychology

graduate or seemingly worked in any

industry related to like human

psychology seemed to be really peculiar

to me

yeah and also I never really had a lot

of power up until that point so it

wasn't like I knew everything about

being a leader or anything

um you know a lot of things that happen

in life are kind of by coincidence or

serendipitous you don't necessarily plan

on it which is sort of when you look

back on it you can see a kind of an odd

plan going on like a Destiny or fate but

in the moment I didn't feel that

um I had all of these different jobs as

you mentioned some of them completely

unrelated you know I worked in

construction I had a construction job I

worked in the detective agency I was a

tour guide to help write an encyclopedia

I taught English in Spain you know on

and on and on and on and on

but I was searching I wanted to be a

writer and a writer needs experiences

I just was hungry for weird experiences

you know I never really stuck at any one

job and by the time you're 37 38

you know my parents are starting to

worry about me I'm starting to worry

about me I'm getting a little bit

depressed even have moments for suicidal

thoughts are floating in my brain like

I'm very ambitious I know I could do

something well but it's never come

together and so here's the Serendipity

part I'm in Italy for a job one of my 80

different jobs and I meet a man who's a

book packager there

on this particular job we're on and he's

he's a Dutchman I'm not going to imitate

him but he asked me if I had any ideas

for a book

and suddenly all of the painful

experiences in my life working in

Hollywood all the I've worked

for all these weird politicking all the

manipulative games all the crap that I

had seen it just came like almost

vomiting out of me and I said you know

here we are it's 20 this was 19 20th

century back then here we are in the

late 20th century

and people don't dress like they did in

the days of Machiavelli right they don't

wear wigs and stuff but it's the same

damn thing it's the same bloody battles

going on the same manipulations the same

kind of you know people don't reveal who

they are

and it's a Timeless game of power just

the same as Louis

xivari Borgia or the people the CEOs in

the late 20th century it says tout this

Timeless thing and I as I'm telling him

this his eyes are lighting he's wow this

could be this could really be a book

and you know

he said look Robert I'll pay you to live

while you write half the book and then

we'll sell it

and as I told you before I was desperate

it was my get rich or die trying moment

I went back to Los Angeles I borrowed

money from my parents because I was that

poor

and I wrote a treatment and he loved it

and that the rest is history that's sort

of my long-winded answer to your

question that's so interesting it's

crazy how in life

things can just take such a

ton out of nothing and you never know

what that thing is going to be and I

mean you say the rest is history there

give me an idea of the success of that

book the 48 Laws of Power because I mean

I've seen it everywhere for for as long

as I've been looking at books so what's

the give me some quantify the global

success of that book

quantify yeah

well here in the U.S it's it's sold

quite a bit over 2 million copies which

is great and the weird thing is it's

selling now more than it ever has sold

before in other words the the percentage

of books that we're selling here in 2023

is greater than any period before so

it's accelerating which is insane you

know and even my English Publishers

having the same uh is telling me the

same stuff

so it's kind of accumulated it it

started off a little bit slowly I mean

we got press but it became this kind of

cult thing I've had very little

publicity in mainstream media which was

big back then it's not big anymore thank

God but um

it was word of mouth it's like if you

heard about this book it's kind of dark

blah blah blah blah it got on a few

television shows there was this show a

reality show with boxers I think it was

called the contender in which the

finalist held up a copy of the book and

said this book helped me get to where I

am now and it sold like crazy it got

into the hip-hop stream you know Jay-Z

was the first person I ever saw quoting

the book in in print and in Playboy

interview and then you know 50 Cent and

all that and Drake and all these people

that really kind of set it into the

stratosphere so it's it's slowly become

a bigger and bigger thing and um

I had no idea you know I thought it was

a weird book and it could be successful

but I had no idea the journey I was

about to begin it's it's weird that

journey of writing this book has your

have your feelings towards the book

evolved or changed over time because

Society moves on you move on as an

individual as a human you learn new

things you mature and then the book is

kind of held in time

not really

um I I my philosophy in life is is never

look back regret nothing you know it's

it's there I did it it came in a

particular moment in my life and in in

the Zeitgeist and things have changed a

little bit

but I was it was a very serious effort

to try and get it something Timeless now

yes there's a dark side to it and maybe

I've moved on from that and I did

honestly when I wrote my fourth book

mastery

I was a little bit concerned that young

people were getting to were thinking

that the whole game of life is about

politics manipulation so I wrote a book

to kind of counter that

but I I think the book is is true and

it's held up I think

if I look at business what's going on in

the business world I kind of got I think

I hit it on the nail about what goes on

in the Dynamics and the power game

you know I wrote a book on human nature

and the idea is we were formed hundreds

of thousands of years ago in particular

circumstances our brains are wired a

certain way yes we're very sophisticated

yes we have the internet yes I'm here

being interviewed by you on a podcast

it's pretty insane but we haven't

fundamentally changed the same raw

emotions of Envy of aggression of of you

know worrying about our status about

having to disguise ourselves and appear

like we're saintly and loving that we

don't have a shadow which we all have

none of that has changed so yeah I

wouldn't write that book now because I'm

at a different place in life and and I

understand that but

I have I don't I'm not ashamed of it in

any way I stand by it and I think I

hitted something real

what is in your definition what is power

you know I was really compelled when

you're talking about the evolution

evolutionary roots of power but like at

its Essence what is power

it's not what you think it is it's not

you know Vladimir Putin or presidents or

Biden or all these political figures and

these big games Power is a feeling it's

in essence it's an emotion it's a it's a

human need and desire

and really what power is is a sense of

understanding yourself and and being

able to control yourself so the way I

look at it I like to look at it not

through the lens of great power politics

but as an average everyday human being

here in the United States or in England

the feeling that you have with your

children with your spouse with your

colleagues the people who work for you

the sense that you have no control that

you can't influence them with your ideas

that you can't get them to maybe you

know soften some of their ugly Behavior

if they if they have that that you can't

get them interested in helping you with

a project or whatever is the most

miserable feeling a human being can have

Malcolm X out a quote that I love which

is

absolute power corrupts but absolute

powerless corrupts even more

I'm I'm butchering it but that was the

gist of it the feeling of powerlessness

is actually more corrupting than the

feeling of having a lot of power

you it makes it turns people into being

passive aggressive into playing all

kinds of weird games negative games to

get power

you want to feel that you have a degree

of control over events in your life over

people over your future and that to me

is what a power is right and so some of

that involves these games that I I

mentioned in there and some of it goes

beyond the 48 Laws of Power which I've

tried to indicate in my other books

but it's the sense that I'm not helpless

in this world

I remember when I first entered the work

world as a very naive college graduate

with all these ideals and things I'd

read because I was studying literature

and languages

going man this is weird people are

playing all these kind of games I mean

over my head I made mistakes I got fired

for being you know too Brash for

outshine the master it was painful right

and so

learning you don't have to abuse the

loss of power I don't Advocate crushing

your enemy totally I hope I don't have

any enemies ever that I need to crush

ever

you just need to know these things so

that when you enter the work world

you're not naive you're not stupid you

don't make the same kind of mistakes

that I made you spare yourself with pain

you understand the most fundamental

thing about human nature

people have egos

even your boss has an ego you think he

he or she doesn't because they're

powerful they have they're even more

insecure than other people you need to

be aware of these things so that you

don't inadvertently make them feel

insecure and suffer the consequences

so um that's I don't know that's sort of

my idea of power that I was trying to

describe there the way you describe it

is more of a sort of intrinsic

um Force perception of yourself when

people think of power they think of

having control over others or their

influence over others but you've kind of

made it more of a internal

Force yeah well if you can't control

yourself then you're in a lot of trouble

in this world right because

when you just naturally are yourself

doing things you're going to offend

people you learn early on we're social

animals I have to tailor my behavior you

know if you go on babbling about all

about how you feel and think Etc and you

just say what's the first thing on your

mind you're going to end up having a

very very short career you're going to

be saying things that are going to

offend people you're going to be making

a fool of your yourself you'd be saying

things that you end up regretting right

so you have no self-control

and if you see somebody who has no

self-control it makes them it makes you

look like you're not powerful if you

can't control yourself how can you

control anything in your environment how

can you be a leader right so you have to

learn

certain things about about your nature

about who you are and and not just just

be anybody you have to kind of tailor

your appearances as well

because for good or for bad I'm a

Believer in looking at the human animal

without shame and embarrassment just as

we are right and appearances matter it's

the animal part of our nature we we're

we look at we look we judge people by

how they how they how they appear how

they dress their tone to voice their

body language etc etc

it would be in an Ideal World

we wouldn't judge people by appearances

we just judge them by what's inside of

them yes I agree with that but that

we're not ideal we're not descended from

Angels we're descended from primates so

you have to understand that appearances

matter and this is part of of the game

and so

you have to control your appearances a

little bit you have to tailor it you

have to be a bit of actor in this world

on and on and on

you know these are things that people

don't like to admit about ourselves we

like to think that we we're much more

have much more idealistic that we're

that these things really don't matter in

the end

and I wish it were that way but it's not

and so um I'm a bit more of a realist

when it comes to things like that but

yeah

as you were talking about this

need to keep up appearances to some

degree in order to survive and to fit

into the the tribes that we form in our

lives it made me think about how many

guests I've had on this podcast who work

in maybe the entertainment industry or

other Industries yeah you know they're

famous whatever and they report that

Keeping Up Appearances had a really

detrimental impact on their happiness

and their fulfillment in life because in

some cases they you know it meant that

they were doing a job as a presenter and

had to always be happy when inside they

didn't feel that and maybe the contrast

of reality and

um and perception caused them a lot of

harm or they've built a life around

things that they're not interested in I

think you touched on some of that in

Mastery yeah

um that's the that's the question I have

which is keeping up appearances and the

impact that that has on your happiness

are you wearing a mask

um and happiness what's the relationship

I talk about it in the 48 Laws of Power

where

you have to play this this game in life

it's a con to me it's a form of wisdom

which is

it's a wisdom that used to exist like in

the 18th century I read a book that had

a big impact on me many years ago called

the fall of public Man by Richard Senate

in which he described like Cafe life in

London in the 18th century or France and

he was saying back then when you entered

the public Arena or your Cafe you knew

you were an actor you left the house you

put on the mask and you had fun you know

you knew it was like fun it was play you

know when you're a child you like

playing games you like putting on

costumes you like playing your parents

or some character you saw on TV it's

part of human nature we like to play

these games where role players we're

actors and he was saying in the 18th

century that was just a given in life

that when you entered the public realm

you knew you were an actor and then when

you went home

to your wife your family or your husband

or wherever

you drop the mask you went you breathe

the Deep Side relief go now I can be who

I am right and and it wasn't a problem

it didn't create neuroses it didn't

create this like what's wrong with me

I'm I don't know who I am anymore

so people now the problem now is we

don't have distance from that social

realm and so we think that if we're

acting that's who we are but it's not

it's just that's part of being a social

animal is playing a role you know I did

a book with 50 Cent and he kind of

exemplifies a lot of that

he plays a role in life you know when I

met him I I thought uh oh

I was kind of intimidating I was a

little bit afraid you know the thug this

is a guy when I met him he was you know

just a few years away from being shot

and all this stuff

and I met him

and he was the nicest person well he was

almost kind of sweet he'd hate it if I

said that word but he was sweet right he

was very down to earth he was very calm

Etc he's playing a role when he goes out

and he plays that person he knows it he

knows it's like he doesn't take it

seriously you know he had this big beef

with Kanye West back when I was doing

the the the book with him and then I met

the two of them in Vegas when they were

there for the awards they were like the

best of friends they were joking it was

just a game they were playing right so

what I tell people is

we all are actors

humans are born actors we learn at a

very early age to play that kind of game

it's kind of fun sometimes to do that

you know have it enjoy that part of life

but don't think that it don't get

confused with who you are in your

essence

that's sort of the dance you're playing

between those two things I understand

what you're saying and a lot of it has

to do as you said related to Mastery

where people end up in a career

that doesn't suit them

and I look I I think I understand what

you're getting at or I look at like

presenters or people in the news and

they have to smile and be so cheerful

like man what a drag I'd hate to be like

that you know that is so false don't you

feel kind of don't you want to take a

shower after you being so cheerful and

chatty and all that you know yeah I

understand that

but if if that's the profession you

chose and you love it then maybe you

don't feel that way I couldn't do it

personally but you know I think

I think it's okay

think of yourself as an actor I don't

think there's anything wrong about that

um the second very curious lower in your

book that I uncovered was it was low

number two I'm talking about the 48 Laws

of Power here where it says never trust

friends too much

learn how to use enemies yeah do you

trust your friends

okay well everything in the book is

context so when you take things out of

context it's a little harder to

understand and what I'm trying to say in

that

I'm talking about in the Work World when

you're out in the social realm and one

of the worst things that people do is

you have a job and I've been guilty of

it myself even after I wrote the damn

book

you're out in the work world and you

need to hire somebody you need to find a

colleague you need to find some a

partner or an employee

your mind naturally gravitates towards a

friend right because they know you you

trust them you have a relationship you

know and you feel comfortable with them

and it's a terrible mistake

so many of the worst things have

happened in history are because of that

very problem

because friends is there's all these

emotions involved between people right

and those emotions confuse the issue so

what I'm talking about in that law is

when you need to get results you need to

think when you have a job or something

you have to think in Practical terms not

in terms of emotions not in terms of

friendship etc etc

so you want to keep your work world

separate

it's not everything about life is having

to be friends and having nice things and

everybody like you

sometimes what matters is getting

results done and sometimes the best

person to work with isn't your friend

because they don't have all this other

stuff that we're talking about in fact

a very powerful move is if there's an

enemy out there somebody who you never

got along with

if you say if you approach them and say

let's bury the hatchet you know I have a

job and I'd really like you to work with

me I know you're really smart

that per the turnaround of emotions is a

very powerful thing where they're going

wow yeah sure that's that's great I

never expected that and they're all

they're highly motivated to now prove

that they're worthy of of your of your

change of mind

so

it's not about not trusting your friends

in the realm of friendship in personal

relationships it's about being aware

that the work world is different from

the realm of personal relationships the

other point I found really curious was

was put 0.3 about concealing your

intentions and yeah I I find this

curious because I've never really known

where to land on this when people ask me

for advice on the subject matter about

how much of your hand should you show

whether it's in business or life or

whatever there's a there's a group of

people that think you should always just

keep everything you're doing and your

intentions totally secret because then

people might copy you or they'll attack

you whatever and then there's another

school of thought that says when you're

building something when you're doing

something when you have a mission you

need to share it with as many people as

possible because that will Galvanize

people to to come along with the journey

with you and they'll want to support you

and help you so when I read

um Point number three about concealing

your intentions

I wanted to ask you about what what you

think about that which side do you land

on well everything depends on

circumstances so the laws are never

meant to apply to every situation right

so when it's with your own team and

you're trying to inspire them and you're

trying to give them a vision you try to

get them on your side yeah you share

your vision with them you share this is

where the group is going this is where I

want things to be in three years let's

all get together we're trying to do

something very positive for the world

okay here we here's my plan right but

then there's circumstances where

revealing everything that you about what

you're planning to do is actually very

counterproductive right so the business

world

in the 21st century is extremely

competitive it's getting worse and worse

by the day as more and more people now

are entering the power Arena and I think

it's a great thing where it used to be

just a realm where only older white men

had power and now it's the doors have

opened everyone the comp level of

competition is that much more intense

particularly now even with the internet

you have Rivals out there you have

competitors out there even as we talk

right now maybe you're not thinking

about them but they are they're going to

steal your ideas they're looking to take

your business away from you

etc etc just be aware of that phenomenon

and just always saying what you're

planning on doing isn't always the

wisest thing to do sometimes if you're

in a tricky situation

making putting people off the scent

giving them a red herring and saying I'm

planning to do this when in fact you're

planning to do that it's very powerful

technique it's deception but all's fair

in Love and War and business I'm I'm

afraid so you know there are moments

where you don't want to lay all your

cards out on the table right you want to

either create a little bit of mystery so

that people don't know what you're going

to do next and they're wondering what

you're going to do next

and as they're wondering what you're

going to do next they're kind of on

their heels a little bit what's the next

thing that that Stephen is planning I

don't really know wow you know it makes

it it's a very powerful approach there

are other times and other experiences

and moments in life where you do want to

reveal what you're planning to do

because there's a purpose behind it I'm

just saying be aware don't just act in

this world be aware have a strategic

mindset sometimes concealing is what you

need to do sometimes not concealing is

what you need to do it's funny when we

have this conversation about power and

the Darkness and the Shadows that people

have in them I think a lot of people

listening

and probably it seems that way because

I'm the one asking the questions is if

I'm questioning society that I'm not

part of

um they'll think they don't they might

think they don't play these games right

they might you know so that's the

question I have is like have you ever

encountered anybody do you believe

there's anybody out there that doesn't

play power games manipulation have

shadows have darkness in them no I don't

but um so in my War Book uh I I read the

biography of Mahatma Gandhi

well the Saint Louis figures in history

right

and I realized that Mahatma Gandhi was

actually a brilliant strategist now I'm

not saying his use of non-violence and

Civil Disobedience didn't come from the

heart he didn't mean it he wasn't

actually he didn't actually believe in

the peaceful method he did it was very

sincere but he was very strategic about

it and he planned a campaign several

campaigns like the Salt March in the 20s

where he knew for instance that the

English public was very liberal-minded

they had this idea of themselves as

being this very they weren't

colonialists they weren't imperialists

they were doing the best for the world

and he deliberately had these marches

where he knew that that on they would be

reading in their newspaper and seeing

photographs of Indian people being

beaten up by Englishmen and and their

Indian officers on the streets of

wherever

it would have a terrible impact on the

public he thought in terms of strategy

okay so there's Gandhi then there's

Martin Luther King who's somebody I

wrote about a lot in the laws of human

nature another great icon whom I admire

who actually was inspired by Gandhi and

had campaigns of Civil Disobedience and

there was a campaign I believe it was in

Montgomery or Selma Camp which remember

which one

where um he was getting fed up they

weren't getting very far the Civil

Rights moved they're reaching a stale

mate and he was getting very frustrated

and

um somebody an advisor came to him said

look we're going to have this massive

March and and I I can get a lot of

Elementary School and Junior High School

students to be on this March because

they believe in you and they're very

fervent

and I think it'd be great and his

advisors go God you can't do that

you can't have put 13 year olds at risk

and Martin Luther King thought about

Virgin he said no we're going to go

ahead and do it

because damn it I want the American

public sitting in there all fat and

watching their televisions to see these

brutal you know Paul Connor the the

police chief then

I want to see these children being water

hosed and beaten and it's going to have

an incredible impact he was being

strategic and his advisors were shocked

by it but it ended up proving to be one

of the most pivotal important moments in

the Civil Rights Movement so here you

have Gandhi and Martin Luther King I'm

never and Martin Luther King was a

flawed individual as we know right he

had a private life that wasn't exactly

in the same as his public life

I don't judge him for that because he

was a brilliant man and I admire him I

love him deeply reading his biography

made me even admire him even more seeing

that he had a human flaw outside to him

but these are icons that we set up and

they reveal what I'm talking about in

human nature

you can't escape it but yeah maybe there

was some Saint born in some Century that

I've never heard of that maybe

got pretty far away from everything I've

talked about

but you know you know we all have this

idea like

in the laws of human nature I write

about irrationality Envy aggression we

go or narcissism narcissism is a good

one

oh they're a narcissist I'm not a

narcissist I'm not self-absorbed but

they are yeah yeah I don't have any of

those traits well damn it every single

human being has self-absorption traits

we can't help it we naturally think of

ourselves first yes there are people who

are much deeper narcissists in life no

doubt and there are toxic narcissists

but we all have a touch of it I want you

to be a little more humble in this world

and not be so arrogant and not think

that you are somehow exempt from having

a dark side that somehow you were born

with a halo over your head that you were

born different you don't have human

nature that you're a saintly person

you're much better get rid of your moral

superiority because I find that deeply

offensive we are all Cut From the Same

Cloth we all have the same flaws and

when you look at yourself and when I

wrote the laws of human nature I'm going

damn it Robert

you have a dark side you're a narcissist

you know I had to come to terms with my

irrationality my grandiosity my

aggressive instincts but it's the only

way to change yourself is to be aware

that you have these issues

I have the narcissistic Tendencies now I

see it all right now when they prop up

pop up I can control it better I can say

damn Robert you're being too

self-absorbed you think more about the

other person but if you go around in

life thinking I don't have any of these

problems I'm not a narcissist you're

never going to have the awareness to

stop the fact that you are actually one

being a narcissist is that objectively a

good or a bad thing because when you

when you was obviously I know people are

having a bad thing it's a narcissist

cause a lot of harm and that's very true

but in the context of the human animal

and why the human animal develops

certain attributes and qualities to to

you know maybe further it survival or

its ability to stay within the social

pact is it just a consequence of being a

human to have these like Shadow traits

and to be coercive and manipulative is

it good or is it bad

or is it neither it's neither neither

um

because it just is right

um so with narcissism for instance

um there's a reason why we're

narcissists so I explained in the book

it's not my own Theory it comes from

some great psychologists like kahoot the

origins of narcissism right so when

you're

have to leave you when your parents have

to kind of not abandon you but have to

not give you as much attention as you

used to have and you're three years old

or four years old

you don't remember it but it was very

painful

like oh they don't love me as much

what's wrong with me right you know I

have to get that love and attention not

just naturally I have to do things to

earn it etc

etc and what happens with a lot of

people in that situation when you're a

child is

I have to develop my own I have to be my

own mother or father I have to find a

way of loving myself

when something bad happens I have to

retreat Inward and go I'm really not so

bad at all I'm actually a decent person

I like my own tastes I like the clothes

that I wear etc etc you're developing

the shreds of self-esteem right and

people who never develop that because

they were abused or they were abandoned

or even if they were suffocated

never developed that self-esteem and so

what happens in life is whenever if you

don't develop that and you get older

and people attack you and yell at you or

criticize you you can't Retreat inward

to that self-esteem that love you have

the only thing you know is to get angry

to get the call it narcissistic rage and

to yell at people and say God get away

from me you're evil etc etc etc right

and then the other problems evolve where

the only way I don't have that inner

self-esteem the only way I get people to

love me is by being incredibly dramatic

and overly dramatic Etc et cetera et

cetera and always making myself the

center of attention that's what creates

a deep narcissist that's their only way

of getting the love that they need so

children we all need that degree of

self-esteem that anchor in our life so

narcissism self-love is not a bad thing

but what happens is as you get older if

you go too deep into it it becomes a

problem and so what I say is you need to

take that self-love and it's it has a

good function and turn it outward slow

as much you can and turn into empathy

and love and consideration for other

people more that's your task as you get

older in life that's how I approach all

of these flaws you can't run away from

them you can't run away from your Shadow

your dark side you can make it work for

you can make it positive and productive

and healthy you can become a healthy

narcissist which is a a name that I use

in the book

you can use your dark side for positive

purposes

let's say you have a lot of anger in

your inside and I had a lot of anger

when I was younger I was a very angry

young man right

channel that into some kind of cause

like and you know that I have a lot of

causes that I believe in very deeply and

when I was younger I was like that

channel that energy into something

productive and helpful and put it into

something that goes to something that

helps Society that's using your dark

side for positive purposes because the

Dark Side Of Human Nature has a lot of

creativity has a lot of energy an artist

has to have a dark side you use your

dark side because all those dark

emotions all the people that shat on you

in your life they inspire you they

create your best work don't run away

from your Shadow don't run away from

your narcissism use it in a healthy way

and acknowledge it I think that's the

hardest thing for people to do right

yeah

so few people I think including myself

like have really fully understood what

their their shadow in their dark side is

I mean doing this podcast has really

helped me because I learn things from

other people vicariously and then I look

at reflect on myself or keeping a diary

has helped me to understand that but

that first step in someone having the

self-awareness to understand their dark

side I mean there's even a lot of people

who confronting their Dark Side would be

so it feels like it would be so

impactful on their self-esteem in a

negative sense that they spend their

life

putting up a wall to never go there I

mean there's some people who you even

mention something to them and they would

triggers triggers them yeah you know we

can all think of those people

um

we can all think of those people that

the really interesting thing there is

the role that your early years play on

your relationship with power

because when I think about some of the

nicest I don't know if this is just a

general a stereotype or a narrow

observation I've had but some of the

nicest people I've met in terms of you

know being the opposite of whatever and

toxic narcissist is seem to have really

comfortable loving secure safe early

experiences and then is that is that

broadly true in your view

it's a generalization but there is is

some truth to it I mean there's things

that called attachment theories where uh

psychologists have looked at the kind of

attachment you had to your parents and

they categorized it in four different

ways and there's the ideal the best one

where you have this

incredibly loving mother and father and

they they're they're giving you

unconditional love but they know also

how to give you your Independence Etc

it's not terribly common I don't know

what the percentage would be then

there's levels and levels and then as

you get to the fourth level it's like

the abandonment one where or abusive and

abandonment where you basically leave

the child alone you don't give it any

attention any love and it's very

crippling right but the thing is

children are much stronger than we think

they are they're very resilient they're

very resourceful

they're gonna find their love they're

going to find a way to compensate for it

in some way and what's something very

interesting when I was doing seduction

in some of my other books and I look at

people who were like very charismatic

like a Malcolm X like a Marilyn Monroe I

could go on and on and on these are

people that came from very very bad

families right

they had no love Marilyn Monroe was a

was an orphan essentially raised in an

orphanage you know her whole life was I

gotta get people to love me I need love

so desperately and her way of doing it

was to literally make love with the

camera nobody ever done that before you

could sense that she needed it and it

was so powerful that you sensed it that

she drew it to herself

great charismatic individuals John F

Kennedy is someone who had a lot of

Charisma he came from a very bad

childhood right his father was very mean

to him Etc some children in the worst

circumstances it ends up bringing the

best out of them they have to find their

way in life and some people who have

everything

don't go very far because they don't

know how to find things for themselves

so life is weird some people who have

great childhoods do well some people

have great childhoods are spoiled and

never learn how to get things on their

own and some people have the shittiest

childhoods learn how to be resourceful

and and and and and get what they need

on their own

you mentioned seduction there The Art of

Seduction why did you write a book about

the topic of Seduction

seduction is in a high form of power

because you make people feel pleasure

you make them feel excited or interested

in you and then their their resistance

to your ideas slowly lowers and you have

the ability to influence them and to

move them in the direction that you want

if you yell at them like how we talk

about your child and you tell them do

this do that they resent it and for good

reason

but if you're subtler if you're more

seductive in your approach if you're

more indirect

people will do what you want or go in

your direction without ever even

realizing it so it was a sub theme in

the 48 Laws of Power and so I was sort

of interested in the psychology of that

and why some people are good at it and

some people are awkward about it so when

I finish the 48 Laws of Power I thought

this would be

a natural segue the next book what are

the qualities of a great Seducer

well I like to distinguish between cold

seducers and warm seducers a cold

Seducer is something you don't want to

be that's the typical image that we

might have of a male Seducer but even of

a female Seducer like the great courtesy

set up or they're just after money or

the men are just after sex

that's not my ideal my ideal

is kind of a back and forth quality

where it's not domination it's sort of

like a game that you're playing it's

like a mating game it's like a courtship

ritual where both part people are kind

of seducing each other and so what makes

for a great Seducer is very simple I can

summarize it very simply you are outer

directed

so when you meet somebody

for the first time or you're on a date

or whatever it is

you're not having that internal

monologue going does she like me or does

he like me am I dressed well am I saying

stupid things what can I do to impress

them no you turn it off and you're out

or directed and you're listening to them

and you're entering their spirit and

you're hearing them say things that that

give you idea of what they're missing in

life of what they want of what their

needs are of what makes them an

individual

you're absorbing it you're entering into

their spirit and then you can reflect it

back to them you can give them gifts you

can take them to places that show that

you're attentive to them

because if you look at how we are in our

day-to-day life

normally people never pay us attention

they're always so self-absorbed they're

never thinking about us

I mean the times where you get the sense

that people are actually interested in

who you are as an individual is pretty

rare

if you give that feeling to someone it's

incredibly powerful because we all want

to be validated we all want to be

recognized

so what the Seducer is not someone who's

all worried about him or herself and

thinking they're involved in the other

person they're absorbed like a sponge

inside their psychology inside their

world

a lot of this is you know very

applicable to romance and dating

etc etc it fails for whatever reason I

you know not necessarily something I've

read much about in your work but it

feels like dating and romance and

relationships have become

much more complicated in the modern

world that it's become much more

difficult to seduce somebody

um what is the what are the attributes

of someone then that is not good at

seducing

anti-seducer has many qualities I have a

whole chapter on the anti-seducer I try

and Define it

uh there there are several of them I

can't I don't have them all memorized

but one quality that's very

anti-seductive is preaching and

moralizing

is like telling people oh that's wrong

what you just said or your politics are

ugly or you're not a really you're not

really good at this or something or

other

having a moral superiority a sense of

sanctimonious sanctimony in a realm

which should be about pleasure where

should be that kind of equality that

kind of dinette back and forth Dynamic

where you're asserting your moral

superiority is deeply deeply

anti-seductive the element of preaching

to people

not being generous

and I mean not just with money money is

important

but not being generous with your spirit

right

you want to be open you want to give as

much as you can to the other person of

yourself of your time of your money of

your energy Etc

so being all kind of crimped and I don't

want to give I don't want to spend money

I want to take you to the cheap place to

eat I don't want to give you much time

is very very anti-seductive when you're

talking a second ago about the person

who goes on the day and they're thinking

about themselves and what they you know

what their hair looks like or whatever

else

that spoke to an insecure person

is insecurity a seductive quality or is

it a

anti-seductive quality it is

anti-seductive now there is a part of

weakness that is seductive

so I would say vulnerability is

seductive but insecurity is

anti-seductive and there's a big

difference why does vulnerability draw

people to you

because

the sense so if I can Define seduction

in in in simple terms

um most of the time we are closed to the

influence of other people particularly

now we have these walls up because life

is Harsh people are coming at us with

their advertisements with their pleas

with their wanting money with this than

the other and we've all learned to be

very defensive right and seduction is an

openness is the opposite of that and you

felt it when you were a child towards

your parents you felt very vulnerable

and open and and there was an element of

your parents and how they treated you

that was very much like a seduction

right so seduction is about being open

to the other person to the extent where

you can even fall in love you can fall

under their spell and the sense of

letting go of your ego letting go of

your defensiveness and letting other

another person enter your world is being

seduced it requires vulnerability if you

meet the typical

um scenarios of a man

who's not vulnerable at all he's so

powerful and in control and everything

has no vulnerabilities it's frightening

you know for a woman it could be very

frightening like this he's he's so

strong he's so invulnerable that there's

something wrong about it you know maybe

he's a serial killer maybe he's got

skeletons in his closet something isn't

right about that what what seduces you

about a puppy about a child about an

animal is their vulnerability it makes

you want to hug them it makes you want

to help them right the sense which If

You Came Upon A a tiger that's there and

that they don't need that well that's

not seductive I mean on your screen it

is but if they're there in your living

room that's not seductive but that puppy

is Right vulnerability the sense that

somebody needs protection or help brings

out qualities in us that we don't

normally have that I think allow for

seduction so that is being vulnerable

that is

I can be influenced by that other person

I am open to the to their Spirit right

that's being vulnerable the word

vulnerable I hate to sound like a

professor so excuse me in seduction it

comes from the wrong the root of it

means a wound vuleness so you have a

wound inside of you and you need healing

and the other person naturally wants to

help you right but being insecure is the

off means

I'm so self-absorbed I'm so worried

about myself

that I can't get out of it and we've all

had that experience when you meet

somebody and they and you can sense you

can smell their insecurity in them I'm

not judging them because we all have

insecurities

it makes you feel insecure it makes you

feel a little bit awkward whereas if you

meet someone who's not like that who's

confident Etc it brings out that quality

in you so if you're on a date and

there's someone who's you smell that

kind of insecurity it makes you awkward

and insecure it creates a kind of a

problem so that would be the difference

between the two

there's going to be a lot of people

listening to this that are single

and ready to mingle

um what advice would you give them in

terms of being great at dating you've

talked about the importance of

vulnerability there and how that kind of

forms connection between humans in a

very innate way what else is great

dating advice for this for the single

people out there well

the thing is okay there are several

things so first of all we live in a

culture where people think you don't you

shouldn't have to put effort into

something like love and romance you

should just be who you are man I don't

have to put on a rule I have to play a

game that's manipulative

no I'm sorry

love and romance is something that is

almost biological

if you look at animals and mating

rituals they're incredibly elaborate

seduction is a mating ritual and so the

worst thing you can feel is that this

person isn't putting any effort into

something

let's just say it's it's uh it's from

the woman's point of view this man

he just shows up wearing jeans and his

usual sloppy outfit he doesn't come's

hair

etc etc etc

he takes me to the pub for dinner on our

first date

you know he's not thinking about me he's

not willing to put any effort into it if

he's not willing to put any effort into

it

what's it going to be like three months

down the line when he completely takes

me for granted which is what happens in

a relationship am I not important enough

right whereas the ability to have a

little bit of effort to think of it as

kind of theater and drama and that

there's nothing evil about it so

I'm going to dress nicely I'm gonna I

just have to be fancy just that I'm

gonna you know I'm gonna put some effort

into how I look I'm going to take her to

a place that isn't is you know I'm not

talking about candlelights and roses and

that kind of crap doesn't that you can

be creative it can be somewhere that

that's scuzzy that's on the wrong side

of town but it's different and it's

appealing to and you put some thought

into it there's a reason you're taking

her there right I have a friend who went

on a date and she came back from the

date and was complaining because the

person that she date went on that first

date with

was using a took it to a spot where he

had an available valid discount code

and and talk about anti-seduction there

you go why is that anti-seductive in

that case one might say that male is

being you know economically Savvy

financially savvy

that you know if you're not able to let

go of your of your kind of tightness

when it comes to a woman something's

wrong with you man just let go spend

some extra money spend the extra 10 quid

that you might need to spend on taking

you to someplace different but it

signals a kind of cheapness and it's not

about money it's about a cheapness in

your spirit

right she's not worth

you know letting go okay maybe you don't

have that much but my God you have

enough it's not gonna like if you're

that poor then then you know okay maybe

but probably not you could afford it

show that you that it means something to

you

let seduction is a language it's not a

language of words it's a language of

gestures that we're paying attention to

we're paying attention to people's body

language we're paying attention to their

actions to the things that they never

say

so when you signal that

discounts are so important to you that

even on the first date you have to have

a discount

you're signaling that it's not there's

something tight about you in your nature

and it's not very pleasant I from doing

this podcast and speaking about topics

like love and sex and dating and you

know dating apps even one of the um

comments I saw quite frequently was from

young men who are struggling to seduce a

woman yeah or vice versa

um specifically young men that you know

and then I read some stats I think Scott

Galloway came on the podcast and talked

about how

I'm gonna butcher these numbers but a

staggering amount of men haven't had sex

and the young men haven't had sex in the

last 12 months

um and then when I looked at the

comments section specifically on YouTube

I saw I kind of saw that energy

reflected where it looked like young men

in particular were struggling to seduce

a mate a partner in the modern world

is is that real in your view is there is

there something that has changed in

society has that always been the case

um is there anything we can do if we're

a young man that's struggling in the

modern world because of the internet and

computers and this and dating apps and

well a lot of it is I'm afraid to say is

internet porn

where you get the idea that you know sex

is something that should be very easy

and quick and that women should have

look how that kind of body and physique

etc etc and that becomes your Norm

Etc that can be that can be very

damaging but the idea that things must

come easy and quick is is very prevalent

and to win over someone like oh say

you're a man it's a woman who might be

reluctant to have sex for good reason or

reluctant to have a relationship

requires some effort it requires some

thinking you can't just hack well you

can't just swipe and get it you can you

can have your internet sex but you're

not going to get that in real life it

doesn't work that way it takes time it

takes patience you know and you're gonna

have to work and you're going to be

rejected

being with people is a skill being a

social animal although there's a part

that comes naturally if you spend all of

your time here you're losing that skill

of how to respond to people's body

language you know half of the thing is

you're sitting in a bar opposite let's

say it's a woman

and how she crosses her legs how she

sips her drink how she looks at you how

she touches her hair she's signaling

things it's a language it's a beautiful

language right you have to learn it and

you're not going to learn it here

because you can't you have to be in

person it has to be skinned skin you

have to get a feel of what other people

are thinking and feeling and we're

actually really really good at that

humans have that's what makes us human

it's called mirror neurons I can sense

what's going on in your mind I can read

your body language

you have to get out in the world and you

have to be put yourself physically out

there and try and try and try and have

rejection

and I know it sounds awful but it is a

skill in a way where you're learning how

to like understand and deal with people

and and and understand that what they're

who they are and get inside their Spirit

it takes time and effort and patience so

for young men you have to realize that

right you if you think everything has to

be easy and quick it's never going to

work for you and I talk about the actor

the Hollywood actor Errol Flynn

who is perhaps

numerically the greatest male Seducer

ever because estimated that he had

seduced close to 3 000 women and he died

when he was 50 and if I I did the math

one day what how can that possibly be

um

and I tried to research what was his

secret and it was hard to find out

finally I found a book written by a

woman whom he had seduced another

actress and she said

he was so relaxed and so comfortable it

was like being it was like an animal

type thing and then what I would sit

with him it was almost as if I had drunk

two martinis just sitting next to him

his comfort and his security and his

confidence his relaxed attitude it just

made me drunk

so feeling relaxed feeling confident and

not defensive and comfortable with

yourself is a very powerful seductive

quality I mean there are many of them

but that's one that I would point out

have you ever figured out what builds

confidence you earlier on you were

talking about how children need to

experience things first hand you can't

just tell them you can't just tell

someone for example to be confident

preaching doesn't seem to work what what

is it in your view that that does build

that true or you also can't fake

confidence no I remember we talked about

rejection a second ago I was rejected by

pretty much every girl that I was

pursuing between the ages of of 16 and

I'd say 22. really yeah like and I do

you know what it was I I was faking

confidence it all changed when I was

actually had a sense of security in

myself but in the period where I was

like faking confidence I was pretending

I was confident

um it was like they could they just

could read past it that's almost how I

look back on the situation so I came to

learn that you can't fake confidence you

can't pretend to be it because there's

so many sort of micro Expressions that

yeah that you that look that end up

reading more like insecurity than

confidence

um but what is real confidence and how

does one build it in your view well

you've kind of answered your own

question there in a way so um you know

conf fake conferences like bravado right

and you're putting on an act

and particularly women who've had to

deal with this for you know Millennia

they can smell it they can sense it they

don't have to it doesn't have it's not

in your words it's the body language etc

etc

real confidence comes from actual

um actions from your actual things

you've accomplished right so you know

when you're 22 21 it's hard to have that

confidence because what is it based on

you know maybe it's based

okay maybe you're you're really good

looking if you happen to have that good

fortune and you can feel confident about

that and you don't have to try so hard

all right maybe that might work or maybe

you're really good at sports or maybe

you're a really good dancer or you're a

really great singer but it's based on

something real you have a skill you have

something that separates you you have

something that you can do that you can

accomplish because when you're 21 it's

hard to have those you know I look back

on myself when I was that age I had

nothing no wonder I got rejected you

know

um

so it comes from what you do in life

okay the the finest sense of confidence

is actually creating things and having

success and meeting goals and achieving

things and having a record of that you

know and maybe what goes with that is

having some money but it's not

necessarily because you don't have to

have a lot of money and you don't have

to be good looking to seduce that's a

myth that I try to explode in The Art of

Seduction some of the greatest seducers

male and female were not good looking at

all it's about psychology and it's about

how you carry yourself

but the confidence comes from actually

what you can do not how you feel or what

you say well it is how you feel but the

feeling is based on things that you

actually can do skills that you have

that separate you that make you feel

really confident you know

so body language

yeah I find it fascinating that you know

there's quotes and things that say 80 of

our communication is non-verbal etc etc

um body language is so interesting to me

because again I think that's one of the

things that it's just impossibly hard to

fake I was reading you know a couple of

books on there was a phase when I was I

don't know 20 probably just after being

rejected all the time when I was maybe

22 where I started reading books from

pickup artists and they would obsess on

the topic of body language and one of

the things they'd say is and I I was

explaining this to my girlfriend a

couple of weeks ago that when when a man

is lower confidence when he's desperate

he does this thing called pecking in a

nightclub where he'll like lean in and

like shout in your ear and when he's

higher confidence he kind of leans out

and he'll he'll wait for you to lean in

small things like that subtleties like

that that intuitively we we're reading

and understanding and communicating and

Etc but someone that doesn't have the

confidence probably isn't even aware

that they do so when I reflect on my

rejection phase I think gosh my body

language must have been exuding

desperation and low status and low value

low self-esteem

what's your thoughts on body language

and

well um in my last book human nature I

wrote a whole chapter on it

I quoted the figure 95 but who knows

what it really is

the thing it is that um we evolved for

hundreds of thousands of years before

language existed right and our earliest

ancestors depended on the group for

their survival and getting along and

their powers came from observing other

people and their body language you could

read it so it's a skill that's wired

into US wired into our brains it's very

unique skill that we humans have it's

just that you don't learn that when

you're a child when you're two years old

you have it because your life depends on

it

you you have to see what if your mother

is is loving you or is or your father is

kind to you because if not you know you

could be abandoned your life depends on

it you're great at reading that and

children have are incredibly Adept at

picking up body language so if someone

is fake

if someone's an imposter they hate being

around children because children see

through you you know like you know like

radar right because they're so attuned

to it you had that skill when you were

very young but you lost it because you

became so oriented with words and you

became so self-absorbed that you're not

paying attention

but it's extremely important right so

the whole body is involved in it so

you've got to first stop thinking about

people's words so much because the one

thing about words unfortunately is

people can lie they can say whatever

they want they can say I love your

screenplay that was fantastic you were

great in that movie I thought you were

great senator they can say anything to

please to flatter to control you but

body language man it doesn't lie right

so I talk in that book about the eyes

and the fake smile the fake smile is

something you see every single day but

you're not paying attention it's like

it's kind of tight right it's like

yeah right but a real smile

you're the whole face gets animated and

there's a little crinkly thing here as

your face as you as it lights up and

your eyes light up it's it's hard to

even put into words but it's there you

can see it it's real it's not faked

knowing the difference between a fake

and a real smile is really important in

seduction in business or whatever to

know if someone is like yeah

I like that idea you know they don't

really they're saying that to please you

they actually hate your idea you master

that language you can start deciphering

all this people are giving you

the face you can disguise it a little

bit actors know that but you know what

you can't fake it's your voice

if you're nervous

not even the finest actors in the world

can fake that your voice betrays so many

things about you it betrays your

weakness it betrays your lack of

confidence or it portrays the other

quality Etc right so pay really

attention to the tone of people's voices

to how fast they talk people who talk

fast are very nervous someone who's

talked I know I'm probably talking a

little too fast too sorry uh my mind

races so I can't do that normally I

don't talk so fast but um

you know you talk slowly you have a

certain tone you have a certain

intonation that kind of reveals

confidence okay

body language posture you were talking

about pecking right when you go and look

at a meeting of people in in a business

meeting

you'll see all the employees kind of

leaning forward nervous and you'll see

the boss kind of leaning back arms for

us like this you know I'm the powerful

one you come to me I'm the leader I'm

the I'm the top dog or she it's a woman

I don't need to be like this I'm like

this body language reveals a lot about

leadership qualities

etc etc etc

you know if you go you're at a party

and you come up to someone that you're

meeting for the first time and they're

talking to you and you notice that their

feet are angling away from you

that means that they're not really

interest they're looking for any moment

to try and walk away and Escape they're

not really into you whereas their feet

are facing you they're engaged they want

to talk to you right

this is a whole art you can learn and

you can sit there and you can read it

and I talk about I give the story in

laws of human nature of a man named

Milton Erickson the founder of NLP and

hypnotherapy probably one of the most

brilliant psychologists who ever lived

when Milton Erickson was 19 years old or

so he had polio

he nearly died his entire body was

paralyzed the only thing he can move the

only muscle he could move with his

eyeballs now imagine that he was a young

man with a very active mind he can't

talk he can't do anything all they can

do is move his eyeballs a little bit

he was so bored can you imagine how

bored you'd be like that you can't read

you can't do anything people would come

in to visit him all they could do was

look at them and study them he became

the greatest reader of body language

ever in the history of mankind people

said it was he was almost had ESP he

could read everything about who they

were just by because he ended up

recovering he became a psychologist

because his life depended on developing

this skill he was going to just die from

sheer boredom if he didn't learn how to

read body language he mastered that

language much like somebody could Master

French and it's an incredibly powerful

language that I I can't emphasize enough

you know we can go about learning the

language of body language and I'm sure

that will help but

it's such a complex

um like VAR there's like a thousand

things with my body language at all

times like how I'm speaking my eyeballs

why where I'm looking my posture my arms

like am I crossing my arms am I crossing

my legs all of these things so the the

challenge of mastering all of that feels

a little bit overwhelming am I right in

assuming the easiest

the easier challenge to master is in

fact just like my sense of self

very well put because you know if you

feel confident if you feel secure if

you're not

all Inward and insecure and worried

about yourself it will naturally radiate

through your gestures yeah you don't

have to sit there and pay attention to

your fingers your arm your ears your

eyes it's just there it's natural so

yeah that is the solution so the two

game parts of the game it's your own

body language be aware that people are

judging you for that right and you can't

as you say

be monitoring everything or you'll drive

yourself crazy and you'll look very

weird right so the best solution is to

feel these certain things that are going

to radiate and to not give the fake

smile but when you really happy to just

show it and show your emotion that way

and the other side

which is more is I think really

important is learning other people's

body language and that can come from

study and is much more a logical thing

than than constantly thinking about

everything that you do

your next book

that I have here mastery

why did you write a book called mastery

well to be honest with you it came the

idea for it was around the year 2010

2009 I was getting a little worried that

people who were reading my books

particularly young men who were reading

power and seduction they cut they were

thinking that's all I need in life man I

just need to be a manipulator I just

need to play political games that's what

success is all about

and I was worried that you know

if if you don't understand how to make

something what's going to be the future

of mankind are bridges just going to

fall down our hotel is going to collapse

people don't know how to make things

anymore we don't know how to use our

hands anymore right so

being able to be good with people is

extremely important as a social animal

but perhaps higher up in the hierarchy

is being able to do things to be able to

have great skill and to be able to

create something and know how to master

a subject and to you know build

something that can last that's really

important and I'm feeling like because

young people this is back in 2010

imagine now

had this idea that everything comes

quick and easy because you can click

click click and things come to you that

everything in life should be that way

that we're becoming alienated from the

human brain how the human brain operates

because the human brain requires time if

you know how the human brain operates we

have what are called neural Pathways and

every time you repeat something a neural

pathway is created and strengthened and

strengthened and strengthened it's why

we get addicted to things but it's also

why we develop skill so if I'm sitting

there shooting free throws day in and

day out and day out my brain is wiring

it it's learning it it's learning that

motor skill that hand mind thing and

it's getting better and better and

better at it it takes time it takes

repetition to build those Pathways and I

explain in Mastery that you reach the

proverbial ten thousand hours which some

people dispute nowadays so it's just a

number it's not it's not a fact

you've spent so long learning something

that there's so many Pathways it's like

this amazing

inner landscape with all these

connections going on in your brain and

now you can be creative now you can come

up with things that nobody's ever

thought of you can play chess on a

higher level you can be Pele on soccer

or Lionel Messi making passes that no

one had ever seen before because you're

not having to think right you don't have

to think anymore your body just does

does what it wants

imagine twenty thousand hours which is

possible just people sometimes detain in

certain Fields you're almost like a

genius you're almost like superhuman

right

if you're someone who's so locked into

the internet to getting things instantly

you can't get past hundred hours let

alone ten thousand you're never going to

develop skill and you're going to find

life really really difficult for you so

I wrote the book because I was actually

deeply worried that we were losing a

part of of how the human brain operates

something Elemental part of our wisdom

the interesting three line between that

and the subject matter we've discussed

in power and seduction is that by

learning to master something you build

that sense of self-esteem and confidence

that we're looking for

um to to be good at the former topics

mentioned but

on the topic of um Mastery the first

chapter in this book and really the

first question a lot of people ask is

this question about finding your passion

and I've always had a difficult

relationship with this question because

it sometimes assumes that there's one of

them and that you have to go in search

of it somewhere in the first chapter of

your book you talk about discovering

your life task

um

why why is it important is it the same

thing is is finding your passion and

finding your life task the same thing no

I just recorded this yesterday uh on my

own podcast I went on a rant about how

it's not about passion it's not about

finding your passion I actually don't

like that word passion it kind of makes

me cringe because if you think about it

passion to succeed at anything requires

time and effort and boredom and tedium

so let's just say a simple example

you're learning to play the piano when

you first sit down at the piano you have

to play these really insipid Tunes it's

so boring you have to learn you know um

I forget what they call it a finger

exercises and scales on any instrument

you have to learn scales Etc it's

tedious man if you think it's got to be

passion forget it you're never going to

get far the thrill comes after a year of

playing the piano and you get better at

it and better and better and now it

starts coming fun then 10 years it's

more fun than 20 years it's fantastic

you know

I'm not I'm not trying to name drop here

but the other night I had dinner with

Stevie Wonder

it was the most amazing thing I ever

seen he's absolutely I wish I'd

interviewed him from my book speaking of

Genius you know and he's blind obviously

everybody knows but I was watching him

you perform for us we were they

prevented his recording studio I was

watching him play the piano and he's

blind

right and he's improvising and it's just

absolutely brilliant and amazing as I'm

seeing this I'm thinking I could see the

thousands of hours he's been putting in

just touching these keyboards and

knowing where the where the where the

keys are you know it was just mind mind

blowing how amazing it was that is the

power that the human brain naturally has

through hours and hours and hours of

effort that's how it works so you know

he didn't get there because it was

passion he got there because he was a

child prodigy at an age of 11. he was

assigned to a contract with Motown

records right

he was playing that as he was a kid hour

after hour after hour after hour he had

a love for the piano but it wasn't like

every time he sat down it had to be

passionate about it he had the patience

to put up with all of the boring stuff

okay so

you want to discover what you were meant

to what you have a connection to what

you have a love for right when you're a

child hopefully or when you're 18 or 19

or 20 that's the best time to discover

it all right

you decide and it doesn't have to be

something highfalutin or or worth uh you

know like intellectual you could be

great with your hands you could be great

with your body you could be great with

images and visuals you could be great

with words you could be great in many

different areas okay they're all equal

they're all great you as a child are

naturally so there's a book I always

recommend for people called the five

frames of Mind by Howard Gardner in

which he talks about the five forms of

intelligence that humans have

the each brain by genetically is wired

in One Direction or the other

you want to know that you want to feel

it inside of you

it's like a feeling it's not an

intellectual thing you feel when you're

doing sports that it's it's good it's a

natural thing it's what I'm meant for

when you're involved with words like I

was when I was eight years old you felt

right it felt like a natural fit I have

to follow this path when you're three or

four years old and it's music like

Stevie Wonder and you're hearing this in

your head wow that's that's it for me

right okay you feel it you feel this

connection all right now you fast

forward to when you're 18 or 19 years

old and you're having to make a career

choice

okay so I call that your 20s the most

important phase of your life that's

going to make or break you in some way

if you spend your 20s trying to learn

skill in something that connects to you

deeply

right

then things are going to happen to you

by the time you reach 30. you've

discovered your life's task it may not

be something so specific for me

it was writing words but I didn't know

what to write I tried novels I tried

journalism I tried theater I tried

screenwriting but you know it it gives

you a direction and you try and you try

and try and you know that's what you

were meant for that's what you were

destined for you you feel connected to

it you feel a love for it and so when it

comes time to do the tedious stuff

you're able to do it because you know in

the end it'll pay rewards you'll get

better and better at it and the

connection is so deep that to not do it

would be miserable so

you can't think of everything in life

having to be pleasurable and having to

be passionate it's going to be boredom

there's going to be tedium how do I deal

with it you have to feel a greater love

than just mere pleasure or passion it's

got to be something so deep within you

that to not do it will make you deeply

and happy for me not to write or be a

writer I don't think I'd be alive right

now I would have been so miserable I

would and so alienated from who I am so

that's what will get you through that's

that's what a life's task is when you

think about that in the book you talk

about the first phase which is you know

your apprenticeship on your journey to

mastery when you're in that

apprenticeship phase

you know when you're maybe early in your

career you're early on your journey to

becoming The Pianist the violinist the

podcast the entrepreneur whatever

what are the the most important things

to be

um selecting for as it relates to the

job you take the people you're around

that kind of thing like if there's a 23

year old listening to this that is a you

know an apprentice at a floristry shop

making bouquets of flour and they're

being offered five different jobs in the

industry of floristry which one should

they be looking at if they're in the

early steps of their apprenticeship very

easy question to answer thank you

um you want to look for the job that

offers you the most possibilities of

learning so if you're going to go to a

florist shop where there's only one

other person there it's like an

entrepreneur who started it and you're

going to be like their right hand man or

woman and you're going to learn and the

pay is half of what you could get at

this very fancy you could be of working

at the shop at some department store

where they'd pay you triple take the job

that pays one-third where you're going

to learn the most you're going to learn

about the business you're going to learn

from the ground up and you note is going

to be a level of excitement where

you know we might not survive another

few months we've got to work hard we've

got to be motivated we're all on the

same page here a lot of people when

they're 23 they grab the job with the

biggest paycheck and that's a mistake

because if you go to like a large large

firm

you're kind of lost you don't have as

much responsibility you suddenly have to

deal with all the political games the 48

Laws of Power you're not paying

attention you're not developing skills

as much you don't have as much

responsibility

take the job that has one half the

salary but you're responsible you're

going to be learning and it's up to you

that's that's the most important thing

you can do when you're at that point in

your life you say there's three steps in

that apprenticeship deep observation

is that what you mean when you say deep

observation you mean like being able to

observe the job happening would you mean

something else well it means that it

also means

so most people when they start a job

their whole their first impulses I've

got to impress people I've got to make

them like me that's that inward

Direction that's so deadly and seduction

and it's deadly in life you want to be

outer directed you want to observe the

codes and conventions of your field the

social codes you know what what's

acceptable behavior what's not

acceptable behavior the skills involved

the the various heuristics the various

things that you have to learn that

create skill you want to be a sponge

absorbing what's going on around you

what are the things you need to learn

what are the valuable skills what are

the things that aren't valuable what are

who are the people you need to avoid who

are the people you need to emulate

you're a laser you're just observing

everything around you and not worried

about yourself that's the proper that's

deep observation you talked about skill

there it's all well and good seeing

skills and knowing what skills are

important but acquiring those skills is

pointing two when you're in that

apprenticeship phase in life skills

acquisition and this kind of goes to

what you're saying with the working in a

florist shop next to the entrepreneur

you're going to be Hands-On you're going

to be doing which is also goes to what

you said earlier about parents and

children like putting them in situations

where they get to do stuff yeah a lot of

jobs don't offer that a lot of jobs

don't offer the difficulty the challenge

right

Hamilton is that well we call it

learning by doing and you see some

things play into how the human brain

operates that which that's what you want

I'd give the image in the in the

introduction to master the pardon the

alliteration here but the brain has a

grain to it

you want to work with that grain you

don't want to work against the grain

because it's counterproductive and one

of the grains of the brain sorry is

learning by doing when

you know flashback 300 000 years ago and

we're sitting there we're making tools

out of Bones out of wood Etc

the way the skill was passed on to other

people and didn't die with with one

generation was you watch this person

making the tool and then you watch them

and you learn and you imitated them

flash forward to the medieval period in

Europe where they had apprentices

apprenticeship schools seven years

you're learning masonry you're learning

carpentry you're learning whatever for

seven years you're sitting there

watching somebody make things and you're

doing it that's how the brain operates

you learn by doing not by thinking not

by thinking oh this is how things are

fitted in more you know with mortars etc

etc no am I doing it with my hands the

human the brain and the Hand have the

most connection of any part of our body

because so much of our power as a

species depended on our hands we don't

have much of that anymore but

learning by doing things with your hands

or making things is how the brain is

wired so you want to go with that grain

so you want to do things you want to

make things you want to be learning

through action not through just a lot of

talk and you know

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one of the things that um that you

referenced at the start of this

conversation I think maybe even off

camera was in 2018 you had a stroke

um and that changed your life in a very

fundamental way

can you tell me what what happened and

how it's How it changed you

well

it was a terrifying experience

um you know I was in a coma

uh I emerged from it and suddenly

I'm somebody who's very physical I I

Sports was a huge part of my life I

would swim very long distances I love

mountain biking I I was doing all kinds

of um hiking it was extremely important

to me I was every single day I did

something physical to take my mind off

things Suddenly It's taken away from me

the left side of my body is basically

paralyzed I have no control over it to

this day I still have problems with it

can't swim

can't mountain bike can't hike right

I can't take my mind I can't think while

I'm taking a hike I can't type for a

rider that's not much fun

I had to deal with crap that I've never

had to deal with my life I had a pretty

easy time compared to this I had to

learn new life skills

when I'm already 62 years old you know

that is an easy stuff I don't want a

whine or complaint because people deal

with worse stuff all the time a lot of

people get cancer Etc

but it's this anybody who's had a stroke

knows what I'm talking about it's very

hard because you can practice and

practice and practice and practice hours

and hours of therapy I do over an hour

of therapy every day and you hardly

notice any results

the frustration you takes you 10 minutes

to tie your shoes you can't button your

your thing you have to get other people

to do that it's hard to cut food

you have to be patient you have to

accept this you have to find another way

of loving your life of accepting these

things that you took for granted before

and I tell people I look out my window

now where I'm writing and I see people

walking their dog and I put myself in

their shoes and go God

that must be so great just to walk your

dog down the street what a pleasurable

thing they don't realize it

you take it for granted now please don't

take it for granted understand that the

ability that you have now to run to walk

your dog to swim to type it can be taken

away from you and just appreciate your

life what you have because the things

that I love were taken away from me and

I wish they hadn't been so I've had to

adjust myself

you know when something like that

happens in life when you

when you are the the victim of an of a

tragedy or instance or circumstance or

something that happens there's often a

degree of unfairness surrounding it when

I when I read about that incident in

2018 I've read that it was a bee sting

that caused a clot that caused the

stroke

yeah I know it's actually I think a wasp

but if that wasp had been like moving

the wind a bit a little different and it

would move this way instead of this way

may not have had a stroke you know but I

can tell you this so

um in May of that year the the stroke

was in August in May I'd finished the

laws of human nature which took me five

years and when I finished that book

I felt like I was near death I was so

exhausted I was so drained you know my

wife was really worried about me because

I just looked really Haggard slowly I

kind of recovered but then

in July I went to New York

and I forgot my blood pressure

medication that I'd take so my blood

pressure was starting to rise and then I

came back to LA and I walked in this

park and the bee the wasp stung me here

and my whole chest turned red and it was

like the most unbearable feeling so I

went to the hospital they gave me this

drug called Prednisone to relieve the

itching prednisone increases your blood

pressure

and so when I ended up having the stroke

the blood clot it was right where the

wasp sting was so the neurologist said

probably all this cholesterol was

released from that drugs that from that

wasp being here and that's where the

blood clot occurred okay but there were

all these other circumstances that kind

of led to it a kind of a perfect storm

and maybe if I hadn't had that wasp

sting it would have happened four months

later under different circumstances and

I would have died because what happened

was I was driving my car when I got my

stroke my wife was in the other seat she

saw

something really strange going on my

face I didn't notice it she forced me to

pull over the side of the road

90 of the time I'm alone I'm swimming

I'm hiking I'm driving could have

happened four months from then

she wouldn't be there I'd be dead right

now so I can't really think in terms of

oh if that wasp had been diverted it

would be a good feeling but it's too

painful for me to imagine I like to

think of fortunately someone was there

who saved my life because it could have

very well happen four months from then

because I my body was worn down and

something much worse could have happened

that that Journey you described of

having to rebuild and relearn and re

redesign your life it's we've talked

about the topic of power so much in this

conversation in that moment it sounds

like your power to some degree had been

taken from you

you know um

you you learn like at least for me when

I looked at people I Look to people

differently after my stroke

I had more empathy for them I'm normally

an empathetic person but I was looking

at people in the pandemic who got long

covered who were having Strokes or were

having terrible circumstances or when I

look at people who are disabled because

I'm essentially disabled now

I understand them I and and also the

other thing is when I look at people who

are really poor

um who are struggling in life

they feel really dependent and helpless

I felt that physically I don't feel that

materially because I don't have that

problem anymore thank God but I I have

more empathy I understand it not an

intellectual way but in a visceral

physical way that sensation of

I don't know where my food's coming from

I don't know what's going to happen the

next day I'm weak I'm dependent I'm

helpless it's miserable

I kind of understood that feeling now on

a on a different level

on a level that affected me personally

and it's a lot different than having it

affect you in an intellectual way

the phases in that journey to where you

are today the first phase after the

incident you wake up you realize that

your your life has changed what's what's

going on in your psychology what's going

on in your mind you talked about

helplessness and

to be honest with you what happened to

me was

right afterwards there was the level of

delusion in my mind I kept thinking well

in three months I'll be back at it I'll

be in six months I'll be swimming in a

year I'll be hiking again I deluded my I

wasn't aware of how hard the process was

and then six months eight months a year

down the road as I realized I was wrong

that's when the depression sat in that's

when it really started hitting me I

thought I'd be back here I am four years

on I thought it'd be back to my life but

I'm not

you know so that's what was the hardest

struggle was actually a year in there

and going

there's a phase where you kind of

plateau where you're not really

progressing anymore that's the worst

part of it I'm progressing now again

because I have a great therapist but

I had to deal with really bad depression

about a year a year and a half in when

it started realized this is my life man

I'm gonna always have this funny arm

that's Bowing in I'm going to be walking

like this

I I don't I never expected this in my

life so I've had to deal with that and

I've had to kind of find a way to not

let it get me down to find other

pleasures and joys in life Etc which I

have

how how do you find a way to not let it

get you down I'm thinking now about

people that are listening to this that

might be struggling with their own

subjective struggles in life they've

been they've lost their job they've you

know they've they have a disability

whatever it might be what are what are

the successful strategies you've

deployed to try and remain

I keep that peace of mind

well I don't know how much of it is

applicable because I'm at a phase of

life where I don't have material worries

you know and I could have had a kind of

stroke where my physical element would

have been untouched but my brain would

have been damaged which is another part

that would have been worse because I

wouldn't have been able to write another

book and I have a very active mind

um

so for me being able to write another

book is my salvation so when it's three

o'clock in the afternoon when I get down

to writing

it's the happiest moment of my life I

feel at peace I'm back to my work and I

love my work and I love what I'm writing

about it saved me a lot I do meditation

I've been meditating now for about 12

years I think more more than that every

morning it's a ritual I have to meditate

if I don't something is wrong and I've

never missed a day I can honestly say

and it it just calms me down it just

gives me a strength throughout the whole

day so I get up

seven o'clock you know the sun's usually

showing because it's Los Angeles and

um I'll go it's the morning

I'm greeting the morning I'm greeting

the sun it's like I'm in like I'm a you

know somebody four thousand years ago in

a tribe here's the sun it's it's a

miracle that there's even something like

that the birds are chirping I'm looking

at the Ivy the sky is blue

calm myself down

intrusive negative thoughts start

popping into my mind you didn't do this

you have a podcast today at two o'clock

Robert you want to do this that and the

other

I'd get rid of them I go calm down put

that away ground yourself and it's

helped immeasurably the other thing is

always keep in mind that there are

people who have it worse than you so I

don't want to feel sorry for I don't

like the sense of feeling sorry for

myself

in fact sometimes I turn it around and I

look at that person walking the dog or

jogging they go I actually feel sorry

for you because you're not aware of how

precarious life is you're not aware of

how this can be taken away from you

you're not aware of how precious it is

to just be alive and just to see the sky

and the birds so I feel better than you

in a way I turned it around I don't want

to feel sorry for myself the things

they're people who have it worse I read

in the newspaper all the time you know

cancer you're in Ukraine or I was

dealing a lot with people in in Iran

right now what they're dealing with I

don't have to deal with that kind of

crap like being in Iran and dealing with

that daily life how how horrifying you

know these are thoughts that take you

out of the moment where you're feeling

sorry for yourself and you're kind of

grateful for certain things so those are

some of the strategies I've had to kind

of create for myself

I find it so um I find it so

I guess powerful to hear those

strategies because we all get caught up

in

a narrow perspective and our own

subjective feelings that we're suffering

or that life is against us and then that

kind of torments us in many ways as

you've post-stroke in 2018

um is there anything else that you have

learned about the nature of Happiness

from from that incident that we that you

might not have known before that

incident that I might not fully

understand now

the things I heard you talk about are

the importance of a sense of purpose how

perspective and gratitude are Central to

are feelings of happiness but is there

any other observations you've had that

I'm just saying this from my own selfish

perspective because I want to know

well first of all I don't want to give

the impression

that I've solved everything so I'm a

work in progress I have moments where I

get so frustrated it's almost like I

have Tourette's Syndrome

like I can't you know I'm still four

years in and my arm is still like this

and I still can't brush my teeth if I

want I get very frustrated so

I'm getting better but it's still a work

in progress I don't want to give the

impression that I've somehow this I've

mastered it because it has mastered me I

have a long way to go but I'm getting a

lot better A lot better at it day to day

um

you know I don't know I think I've kind

of touched on everything only in the

sense of

what about connection you talked about

your wife yes he's helped me a lot

God bless her soul she's had to take

care of me you know and I was somebody

who's always prided myself for being

independent

I was trapped that was another thing

that was taken away from me I was

traveling around the world doing book

tours going to book festivals doing

interviews doing consulting in various

different countries

I could still travel but it requires a

lot more so I lost my Independence I had

to have somebody help me with food every

single day I need things being done for

me and I I feel terrible that you know

she's been put in that position but

she's been very gracious about it and

she understands she has a lot of empathy

because she knows what I've lost so

having somebody in your life if I were

alone I couldn't deal with it man I

wouldn't have been able to deal with it

it just would have been too much for me

it would have been too depressing that

depression that sucks after a year would

have leveled me it just I couldn't have

made it

so that's an incredibly important aspect

just appreciating

the little things in life that I just

you know it's a cliche and I hate saying

cliches

but

um you know I have that feeling almost

every day where i'm looking at somebody

going

man that must be I'm like riding my bike

and I'm seeing somebody just sitting in

a park reading a book on a bench and I'm

going God that is so much fun just to be

able to do that I can't do that anymore

but I put myself in their body the

little things in life that you take for

granted are some filled with so much

happiness and joy that you're not

thinking about if that person's sitting

on a bench reading that book only

realized what this person riding by

thinks maybe they wouldn't take it for

granted so some of those little things

that you don't think about

have incredible importance at least to

me having lost them

so I don't know if I'm

I wish I had something better but no I

think I could only come from my own

experience I can't make it up

your books tend to focus on the nature

of The Human Condition

what how we are as humans For Better or

For Worse and it was it was interesting

because as you were talking over several

topics when you're talking about

seduction and the full weight loss of

power and mastery

it was a part of me that's you know

that started to feel a little bit I

don't know feel the darkness that is

innate within humans a bit a bit too

much maybe

that we're a little bit too contrived

and manipulative and conniving and

whatever else and I was thinking do I

really like humans you know I'm one of

them I don't I'm very conscious of

trying to separate myself I hear people

doing interviews when they're talking

about society and I always think you are

Society I am human I am I'm all of the

things you've described in many many

ways but has your journey of learning

about humans and Human Nature Made you

personally more loving towards humans

more optimistic about the human race or

has it made you the the opposite

honestly well it's maybe more loving but

it hasn't made me more optimistic okay

um you know there's so many things that

are

seem to be going awry in the world today

now I happen to be um the form of

meditation I do is Zen meditation and in

Zen meditation there's this idea of

what's called the tathagata which means

it was it was another name for Buddha

and it means things as they are and one

thing you meditate is

the world is in good or bad or ugly or

evil or unjust it just is things just

are this is just the way the world is

this is the karmic chain the wheel of

Dharma that's been going on for

thousands of years it just is it's just

the State of Affairs

it's you're discriminating your mind

it's your mind that creates all of these

things let go of that and you can

connect to the way the world is without

judging it and it becomes this very

beautiful place and so I a part of me

wants to think of this is just the way

things are but a part of me goes this

isn't good the way things are and I hope

their change

so knowing human nature and knowing how

human nature tends to twist things how

whenever we invent a new piece of

technology it could be the telephone it

could be the television it could be the

internet it could be cryptocurrency or

it could be

you know AI

it tends to twist and darken and degrade

and and pervert anything that was once

maybe in beautiful or interesting it

makes me worried about the future

so there I turned pessimistic and I'm

worried but then

I always think that there's hope with

young people and here I'm spouting

another cliche down I'm going to shoot

myself after this interview but

I feel like when I was young I was angry

about things I didn't like the way the

world was it was Ronald Reagan and

Margaret Thatcher and yuppies and ugly

you know values I didn't have and I

thought there's something wrong I was

angry and I wanted to change it

young people are still like that and I

think a lot of young people gen Z or

whatever the next one is whatever they

call them I don't know yet

um

they're growing up in a world that isn't

healthy that isn't right and when you're

young you have all these energy all this

physicality and you you don't like it

you don't feel comfortable in it and I

know a lot of young people don't feel

comfortable and at some point they're

going to Rebel

and they're going to say I'm tired of

all this virtuality I want something

real I want some I want real experiences

that Spirit of rebellion that I see

seeds of and signs of gives me hope and

I hope that it continues because I

remember once I had a dream probably the

most memorable dream I ever had

it was maybe about 15 years ago or so

and I dreamed that I was there in the

year 2072 or something like that I was

walking around the year 2072 it was the

streets of New York I was going wow

everybody looks so happy humans finally

figured out how to

do well in this world they figured out

how to what matters There's Hope in this

world that was my moment in that dream

this is always sort of stuck with me

maybe that will happen maybe it won't I

don't know I'm not Nostradamus but

you know so this I struggle with that I

struggle with part of me is pessimistic

and part of me seeks Seeds of Hope

particularly in young people and I

really really really wish they figure it

out because my generation Generations

before we've kind of screwed this world

over things aren't good right now and

I'm hoping that Spirit of rebellion that

young energy will kind of come and kick

the Apple card and say screw all this we

want a different world

we have a closing tradition on this

podcast where the last guest asks a

question for the next guest not knowing

who they're going to ask it for and the

question that's been left for you to

answer is

in adult life

when

were you most happy and why

and then brackets it says are you this

way now and if not why

well

I have to say the happiest moment of my

life

came at that turning point when I was 38

or so

and I was given the opportunity to write

the 48 Laws of Power

and it came out

and my life had changed and so the

contrast

from being

in a in a small apartment

rather poor rather desperate where

people were beginning to worry about me

and suddenly things were clicking

together and I was having fun and I was

having all these adventures and I had

reasonable out of money the shift was so

radical and so dramatic that it was

extremely exciting you know and it was

almost like a drug high it was pretty

damn intoxicating

um I don't have that now because it's 25

years ago and I'm kind of still riding

off of that and and the high is worn off

but I can remember in my body how

depressed I was and that feeling and I

never lose it I'm very grateful for what

I have because I know

it could have turned out very

differently

so I still feel that initial happiness

because I know

if you have success when you're 24

you're not ready for it you don't

realize how evanescent it could be how

it can disappear and how important it is

I never had that because I struggled for

so long and so many bad jobs so

the happiness the Euphoria isn't the

same it's not the same intensity but I'm

still riding on that wave because I know

where I was before it happened and it's

been an amazing journey

you know my wife who's been there for it

with it goes can you believe that you

were having dinner with Stevie Wonder

when you were 12 years old you told me

Robert that was the first album you ever

bought was intervisions and what would

you told yourself when you were 12 years

old this is what's happening whoa I

would have I would have flipped out it's

been an amazing journey I can't I can't

complain

my whining complaint card was taken away

from me in 1998 when I published that

book and so I'm still feeling I'm still

feeling the

the last vestiges of that Euphoria from

back then

Robert thank you thank you so much I've

um I've been a tremendous fan of your

work for what feels like forever in my

life and um your your wisdom your your

willingness to confront difficult

subject matter that a lot of people

would avoid because there is darkness in

laced in a lot of the subject matter

that you've written about in some of

your books but it is very

it's very human important as you say

objectively neutral darkness that just

is and for you to confront that over and

over again and your work is is it makes

it some of the most important work I

think anyone could do because it's the

work that a lot of us avoid but your

vulnerability and openness today as well

have been like a shot at my ass in terms

of gratitude

um and the importance of perception

um as it relates to our happiness and

our sense of a sense of self so thank

you so much I've really enjoyed this

conversation more than I could express

in words thank you so much Stephen it

was a great interview I was telling me

that uh I've done thousands of these

podcasts and I know I can tell I've done

my ten thousand hours I can tell

a great interviewer from a mediocre

interview and you're on that Elite

category wow because you ask really

great questions and you're a great

listener and it's been really fun so

thank you so much I appreciate the

opportunity means a lot to me thank you

Robert okay you're welcome

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hahaha

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